The Unofficial Sugarloaf Chat • View topic - Sugarloaf 2030 Plan (2024)

Ski It wrote:I raise my glass to the day that Sugarloaf proactively replaces or adds a lift that is not in response to an accident. Sugarloaf seems to be great at talking about it, but not following through. Its exhausting continuing to defend the "talk" with friends and family I boast to about the Loaf and how great is it. I dont know how much of this is Boyne vs Karl and local management not being able to present a compelling enough vision of need or revenue growth / ROI for such an investment and thus we lose out to other Boyne mountains that can.

I need it to snow so I can get some ski therapy in and try not to think about the mountains aging infrastructure...... while I ride up the mountain on its aging infrastructure.

AMEN!!

Going strong as a Loafer Since The 70s

Location Portland Area

Ski It wrote:[there needs to be] ROI for such an investment and thus we lose out to other Boyne mountains that can.

This is the crux of the issue. And it isn’t about Karl and his team suddenly inventing a scenario that they can sell to Boyne, it is very collaborative and there are no magic bullets or rabbits that can be pulled out of any hats that will change the equation in a way that is materially different from the dozens (hundreds?) that have been explored and vetted over the years, except for the one that moves the mtn closer to the people.

Access to recreational sports is integral to a well-rounded life. Maine Adaptive Sports & Recreation is a year-round program teaching adaptive skiing and other sports activities to people with disabilities ages 4 and up:

http://www.maineadaptive.org/

BubbleCuffer97 wrote:Has there ever been any serious consideration to add flight service from nyc or Boston to sugarloaf? Maybe a cape-air type airline. That’s the only way you would “move the mountain closer to the people”. It would be pretty cool to be able to fly right into the valley from a major city.

I believe there has been serious consideration. My layman’s understanding/recollection is that the airport (airstrip) would need some significant upgrades including a longer runway.

Access to recreational sports is integral to a well-rounded life. Maine Adaptive Sports & Recreation is a year-round program teaching adaptive skiing and other sports activities to people with disabilities ages 4 and up:

http://www.maineadaptive.org/

Feels like a bus from Boston isn't going to be enough to change the math. Bad news for lots at SR -- even though SL real estate looks great today it's hard to know how deep the demand is.

I was doing some thinking on this West Mt. Lift that will be installed in 2 yrs...feels like we can sleuth this one out.

Gmaps tells me the survey line is about 6705 ft long. We know it will be replaced by a refurb HSQ from somewhere else in Boyne.

Nothing in New England makes sense -- lincoln express is 5160 ft.

Out West a few options:
Southern comfort 6055 - Big Sky
Swift current 8302 - Big Sky
Thunder wolf 5802 - Big Sky
Great western express 6620 - Cypress

But gosh, you have to think they will keep Swift out west and use that extra 2k feet at Big Sky. Cypress is even further and I assume it's non-trivial to move lifts across the border.

But wait, there is a lift that is a shorter drive and comes in at 6655 ft...the Super Quad. Might be hard to stretch the towers if you want it low to the ground but it definitely sounds logistically easier to just store them onsite (loon and SR are doing this).

To hell with the timeline they gave us. Next year replace the SQ with a 6 pack D-line, put the SQ in storage and cut the trails for WM. Following year install the refurb SQ on WM. Only thing is they just replaced that top bullwheel on SQ but that's sunk cost!

Crystalmountainskier (liftblog pete), you listening? Want to speculate...can you extend a bit like like this? The list of where this lift is coming from is pretty short.

It's not a given that it'll be a used lift. Ethan says, here:

I wouldn't say that anything is fully off the table, but at this point the thinking is a non-bubble high speed quad. This could be a lift that is relocated from another resort, though when that happens it is primarily towers and carriers (chairs) that are relocated. Terminals/drive/electronics would still be new, making it effectively a new lift.

Ski bus from Boston - pretty sure there are already ski clubs that operate charter buses from Boston and other regions. A big issue is that a day trip from Boston is not feasible, even if you're not driving. Therefore these clubs get group lodging.

Flights to B21 - seriously? If the ski train from Portland to Sunday River failed, how on earth could flights to CV work? There will never be regularly scheduled flights here. For one thing, weather is a major factor for any plane that could fly in to CV. And anyone who could afford to fly to CV would just fly to the Rockies instead.

Bottom to Top lift - where would it start? Not at the old gondola bottom, or anywhere near it, that's for sure. Personally if I win Powerball I will put a funitel to the summit and I would start it just below Condo Crosscut. There it could be accessed from basically every other lift, and it could be lapped. Replace DR with a HSQ while we're at it.

I say again, a big part of what makes Sugarloaf so awesome is everything that's wrong with it - the drive, the wind, the cold, the lifts... this keeps the crowds down, and of higher caliber!!

Alpiner wrote:...the drive, the wind, the cold, the lifts...

This place sounds great! Where do I sign up!?

Alpiner wrote:Ski bus from Boston - pretty sure there are already ski clubs that operate charter buses from Boston and other regions. A big issue is that a day trip from Boston is not feasible, even if you're not driving. Therefore these clubs get group lodging.

Flights to B21 - seriously? If the ski train from Portland to Sunday River failed, how on earth could flights to CV work? There will never be regularly scheduled flights here. For one thing, weather is a major factor for any plane that could fly in to CV. And anyone who could afford to fly to CV would just fly to the Rockies instead.

Bottom to Top lift - where would it start? Not at the old gondola bottom, or anywhere near it, that's for sure. Personally if I win Powerball I will put a funitel to the summit and I would start it just below Condo Crosscut. There it could be accessed from basically every other lift, and it could be lapped. Replace DR with a HSQ while we're at it.

I say again, a big part of what makes Sugarloaf so awesome is everything that's wrong with it - the drive, the wind, the cold, the lifts... this keeps the crowds down, and of higher caliber!!

Wouldn’t be a top to bottom lift if it started there though would it?

gondicar wrote:

BubbleCuffer97 wrote:Has there ever been any serious consideration to add flight service from nyc or Boston to sugarloaf? Maybe a cape-air type airline. That’s the only way you would “move the mountain closer to the people”. It would be pretty cool to be able to fly right into the valley from a major city.

I believe there has been serious consideration. My layman’s understanding/recollection is that the airport (airstrip) would need some significant upgrades including a longer runway.

At B21, never going to happen. Too hemmed in by terrain to get usable approaches even if someone dumped a boatload of money to expand the runway. And by expand, I mean tripling the length at a minimum to allow commercial ops with jet aircraft in winter conditions. Cape Air would never drive enough flight business to put a dent in SL visits (most Cape Air runs outside the MA islands are Essential Air Routes that are US government subsidized. Otherwise, those routes would never have service). Bangor is about as close as you can get to flights into CV region commercially.

New Sugarloaf Gondola. First stage replacing superquad. Second stage replacing timberline. Terminating at new summit lodge. Estimated cost 15-17 mil.

I really think it could happen. It should happen. Boyne can make it happen.

myell wrote:New Sugarloaf Gondola. First stage replacing superquad. Second stage replacing timberline. Terminating at new summit lodge. Estimated cost 15-17 mil.

I really think it could happen. It should happen. Boyne can make it happen.

A gondola is a terrible idea if you're looking to do laps. IMO, any lift at SL that requires you to take your skis off for each run is a waste of time and effort compared to a bubble 6 or 8 chair. That being said, once climate change really kicks in and the main business at the mountain is weddings in the new summit building, a gondola makes it easier for summer guests.

BubbleCuffer97 wrote:Wouldn’t be a top to bottom lift if it started there though would it?

Part of my point was that a bottom-to-top lift starting right near the base lodge is simply not realistic without major transformations that would have significant downsides. And from a skiing standpoint, lapping the whole mountain is kind of silly with all the runout and beginners on the bottom half.

Going strong as a Loafer Since The 70s

Location Portland Area

Rossignolsoul7 wrote:In any case, such a lift will never be installed at Sugarloaf. However, the clusterf*ck around skidway and comp center will need to be addressed at some point.

Indeed! It is dangerous especially when guiding a Maine Adaptive skier with all the associated equipment…pedestrians, skiers/riders (some moving, some stationary), snowmobiles, skis/poles scattered around, it is a lot to try to navigate in a relatively narrow and flat area.

Access to recreational sports is integral to a well-rounded life. Maine Adaptive Sports & Recreation is a year-round program teaching adaptive skiing and other sports activities to people with disabilities ages 4 and up:

http://www.maineadaptive.org/

myell wrote:New Sugarloaf Gondola. First stage replacing superquad. Second stage replacing timberline. Terminating at new summit lodge. Estimated cost 15-17 mil.

I really think it could happen. It should happen. Boyne can make it happen.

But will they make it happen??? Heard rumors that urinal cakes are being reused from last season so 15-17 million seems out of the picture. Even if a base to summit lift is in the plans, don't think they would have the capital for a pricey angle terminal/midstation. How about a Double Runner replacement and more seasonal lockers first. Been on the waitlist for years now

Alpiner wrote:

BubbleCuffer97 wrote:Wouldn’t be a top to bottom lift if it started there though would it?

Part of my point was that a bottom-to-top lift starting right near the base lodge is simply not realistic without major transformations that would have significant downsides. And from a skiing standpoint, lapping the whole mountain is kind of silly with all the runout and beginners on the bottom half.

I agree with you on the runout point except for when accounting for laps through bracket basin. IMO the best top to bottom run at sugarloaf is backside to bracket all the way down (I know, very rare this combo is open). Also, to be able to do tote road top to bottom via one lift would be awesome. I would do that all day. Either of these routes currently takes 2+ lifts, really 3 though for skiers coming out of bracket and looking to get back to the top. A top to bottom Gondi starting at the base solves this.

Whiffletree base to summit would work really well, it looks like. Put it between the comp center and the top of Snubber and it's practically the same alignment as the old one. Not sure where you'd put a garage, though, maybe in front of the comp center? Other issue is that it's on the east side of Upper Gondola Line, and it should really be on the west side and low down, because of wind.

Of course, I'm speculating about this purely because I'm sentimental about the old gondola from when I was a kid, not because I think there's any realistic chance of it happening.

ceo wrote:Actually, a single stage gondola from the Superquad base location to the summit would work...

That would be so ugly and would interfere with so many trails.

Whiffletree base to summit would work really well, it looks like. Put it between the comp center and the top of Snubber and it's practically the same alignment as the old one.

Nowhere near enough room there.

BubbleCuffer97 wrote:I agree with you on the runout point except for when accounting for laps through bracket basin. IMO the best top to bottom run at sugarloaf is backside to bracket all the way down (I know, very rare this combo is open). Also, to be able to do tote road top to bottom via one lift would be awesome. I would do that all day. Either of these routes currently takes 2+ lifts, really 3 though for skiers coming out of bracket and looking to get back to the top. A top to bottom Gondi starting at the base solves this.

Backside into Bracket is really something special, but exceedingly rare to the point it really shouldn't enter into this decision. But a summit lift starting just below condo crosscut would allow it in 2 lift rides (KP or WT + this). Doing ALL of Tote Road in one go used to be a highlight of Sugarloaf and a reward to children and novices who got good enough to do it.

Rossignolsoul7 wrote:The only option for a base to top gondola is the exact same line as before. There's no better way to the summit. The bottom terminal would need to be just slightly upstream of the comp center. The skidway and the ski school clusterf*ck would need to move elsewhere.

This is the best route to the summit. However The Landing and Skidway are huge parts of Sugarloaf's identity for kids (i.e. families) and novices. Removing Skidway is not an option. Even if you could repurpose the Comp Center into the new lift terminal, (and build a new comp center... somewhere), adding a lift maze to that area would only add to the clusterf*ck in a major way. It would also turn The Landing into a high speed approach to the summit lift. Similarly, putting the lift base right in front of the base lodge would destroy The Landing and the aesthetics from The Beach/base area.

Another possibility for a bottom to top gondola would be just to the west of SQ base to Bullwinkle's to summit. But again not ideal.

In any case, such a lift will never be installed at Sugarloaf.

Probably true. I think it would take a very well-heeled individual to make it (or something) happen. Like I said, when I win Powerball.

However, the clusterf*ck around skidway and comp center will need to be addressed at some point.

Skidway/SkiSchool/Bubblecuffers/Birches bottleneck has been a clusterf*ck for decades, and many people/employees have clamored for it to be addressed for decades, but it hasn't been and will never be. The mountain has no way to fix it.

I agree with most of the comments so far. In many ways, this conversation seems theoretical because management has already communicated their intentions. Here's my best guess in terms of new lifts and estimated timing. This might seem pessimistic and I'm sure there are other cool projects that the resort will do in the meantime. I'm especially looking forward to the mountain biking upgrades. Does anyone realistically think the timeline and projects will deviate significantly from the below based on observing the last 30 years:

2023: Pre-owned HSQ installation on West Mountain
2025: Fixed-Grip Quad replaces Double Runner
2027: Planned HSQ from Bullwinkle's to Summit is not constructed due to an unforeseen event (Timberline rebuilt in the meantime)
2029: SuperQuad replaced with a Six-Pack
2030: Some form of summit lift is announced (but not built)

goldenboy80 wrote:I agree with most of the comments so far. In many ways, this conversation seems theoretical because management has already communicated their intentions.

Really it's just a fun pointless game we play here. A bottom to top signature lift will not happen under Boyne/Crusher leadership. I hope I'm wrong about that.

2025: Fixed-Grip Quad replaces Double Runner

Did they say that? I'd be surprised. I don't see it on sugarloaf2030.com.

2027: Planned HSQ from Bullwinkle's to Summit is not constructed due to an unforeseen event (Timberline rebuilt in the meantime)

LOL

2029: SuperQuad replaced with a Six-Pack

SQ has just reached middle age and is in fine shape. Like Jennifer Anniston. The only way I see them replacing it before 2040 is if they transplant it to go from the general vicinity of Bullwinkle's to the summit.

Yes, I could be wrong about Double Runner replacement. I just see that as long hanging fruit that's a bit overdue from the standpoint of resort modernization and not particularly expensive. I've heard discussion about DR replacement but it could be part of 2040 plan. As much as I've expressed a desire for a top-to-bottom, because I love the mountain's history and former pedigree in the northeast, I agree it doesn't sound likely. It would only operate 2.5 months per year, generally service experts up for the challenge of steep icy groomers (besides a week or two of delightful snowy backside slush), and would cost the equivalent of 3-4 smaller lift replacements.

If Double Runner, King Pine, Snubber, Whiffletree, Sawduster, West Mountain Chair, and SuperQuad were newer, I'd be more inclined to think a true signature lift was in the cards. Sugarloaf still has to save its pennies to build a replacement reserve for all of the aforementioned lifts. I suspect upgrades are likely to be cheap and cheerful because there's so much old stuff to maintain and eventually replace, whether this decade or next decade.

The only thing I see that changes that dynamic is if real estate takes off and Boyne notices there's money in the banana stand. Your last point is funny- I suggest the SQ is renamed the Aniston Express. I agree they'll keep it running it nearly forever, but because it's so critical to everything Sugarloaf does, I can also see them making a change in like 8 years. For instance, by then there may be a more energy efficient technology that doesn't even exist now. We shall see.

goldenboy80 wrote:I agree with most of the comments so far. In many ways, this conversation seems theoretical because management has already communicated their intentions. Here's my best guess in terms of new lifts and estimated timing. This might seem pessimistic and I'm sure there are other cool projects that the resort will do in the meantime. I'm especially looking forward to the mountain biking upgrades. Does anyone realistically think the timeline and projects will deviate significantly from the below based on observing the last 30 years:

2023: Pre-owned HSQ installation on West Mountain
2025: Fixed-Grip Quad replaces Double Runner
2027: Planned HSQ from Bullwinkle's to Summit is not constructed due to an unforeseen event (Timberline rebuilt in the meantime)
2029: SuperQuad replaced with a Six-Pack
2030: Some form of summit lift is announced (but not built)

This is so f'ing true it's the equivalent of a mic drop that should end the thread.

I just see that as long hanging fruit

DR is so old and overdue I believe Sugarloaf regards it something like the MRG single. Not that it has anywhere near as much traditional cache, just that it's stable and can be kept on life support indefinitely.

When its time comes, figuring out access to Bateau t-bar is going to be an issue.

Sugarloaf 2030 says DRC higher capacity lift. Getting to T-3 isn't an issue with the new CVA t-bar assuming they have a deal that anyone can use it if wind hold.

Anyone who says SQ is middle age go to Saddleback and ride the new HSQ. 1000 feet per min and 4.6 min ride. Lapping that is AWESOME. SQ is a clunker but with a new top bullwheel and a new diesel engine, it's sticking around.

In other news opening day Monday.